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Old July 11th, 2004, 10:06 AM   #1
The Krakken
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This needs to be said here (Imashroom)

You were right. I'm so angry right now, I don't know what to do. Upon thorough investigation, I've concluded that the writers of the "gold standard" of bibles in our time (the original King James Version), were biased, and basically re-wrote it to fit their pre-concieved beliefs, concerning a myriad of topics, many of which are crucial to the hope of christians in todays world.

I am left with no choice but to return to the original GREEK and Hebrew text, to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes.

As it is now, I no longer consider the KJV the "gold standard" (if there is such a thing) of bibles. Its filled with revisionism, and as such, while not lacking completely in credibiliy, must be met with a very skeptical eye.

I now turn my attention to the original greek.

In the meantime, here lies my most sincere apology. I apologize for all the times I made you the target of my vitriol, as you were only trying to tell me the story as you know it, which as it turns out, is quite a bit closer to the truth than I previously believed, or was willing to accept.




Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN that I've suddenly gone "agnostic" or "atheist". I still believe in one god, and in Jesus' role (not as god either). It DOES mean though, that I've been beliveing certain things that are (for lack of a better phrase), nothing but lies.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 10:12 AM   #2
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Old July 11th, 2004, 10:20 AM   #3
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Arrow I've been beliveing certain things that are (for lack of a better phrase), nothing b

No shit. Krakken, it always scares me how someone as intelligent as learned as yourself could so blindly believe in something (so passionately) that goes against all logic, and logically presented arguments that point to the contrary.

This revelation of yours doesn't surprise me. What DOES surprise me however, is that you'd actually admit it, here. The truth is, I don't think most professed Christians believe even half he shit that they say they do. I think most are simply too conditioned and fearful to admit otherwise.

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NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN that I've suddenly gone "agnostic" or "atheist". I still believe in one god, and in Jesus' role (not as god either). It DOES mean though, that I've been beliveing certain things that are (for lack of a better phrase), nothing but lies.
It's only a matter of time.

Heh, "The Punisher" is gonna LOVE this.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 10:31 AM   #4
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Old July 11th, 2004, 11:21 AM   #5
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You're a good man The Krakken.

And I hope The Punisher doesn't make anything out of this. Your revelation and desire to uncover the original ideas of your religion shows how deep your faith really lies.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 11:57 AM   #6
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Thumbs up

Props to Krakken: for having the courage to examine his beliefs, the honesty to reassess them, and the manhood to say so publicly.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 12:07 PM   #7
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I admire your honesty and courage more than I can express in this little box. It's extremely difficult to be able to look at one's long-held deep-seated underlying fundamental beliefs and accept that they need to be challenged. The difficulty is exponentially greater when one does so and finds that one believes as a result that it is best to then actually go ahead and revise those beliefs. I don't think others can truly appreciate what you have done, unless they have done it themselves. I can, because I have undergone a similar process in changing fervently held mental models more than once in my life. [I may be going through such a process right now with my beliefs on abortion.] My sincerest congratulations.
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I am left with no choice but to return to the original GREEK and Hebrew text, to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes. I now turn my attention to the original greek.
Not to discourage you, but what you will find, if you explore thoroughly, is there is no "original" Greek (or Hebrew). There is no one unique Greek or Hebrew text. There are just Greek and Hebrew sources -- many of them -- and they often contradict themselves. Each translator had to choose which of these to translate from, before even deciding what the translation was.

I suggest you not only look at those texts, but the history of why they were included in the Bible, and why others were excluded. You will probably conclude that there were texts that were never consolidated into the "Bible," that have as much "historical" claim to being Christian "scripture" as those that were (e.g., the beautifully written The Gospel of Thomas). It may even surprise you to learn that some deeply religious scholars (such as Aquinas) who argued for the inclusion of Revelation, did so only if it were recognized as not being literally "true"! [Revelation is probably a coded attack on the Roman Empire, with the seven-headed dragon representing the seven hills of Rome.][quote]In the meantime, here lies my most sincere apology. I apologize for all the times I made you the target of my vitriol, as you were only trying to tell me the story as you know it, which as it turns out, is quite a bit closer to the truth than I previously believed, or was willing to accept.[/Qupte]No apology needed. You did what most of us do -- defend vehemently what we believe deep inside, because we view our beliefs as our selves -- our fundamental identities. When we can learn to separate the two -- our beliefs and our selves -- both improve, and real learning can occur.
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Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN that I've suddenly gone "agnostic" or "atheist". I still believe in one god, and in Jesus' role (not as god either).
As I've said before, it's not what you believe that is critical, but why and how you got there. You're on a journey. You may not reach a final destination, but enjoy the trip. If you keep the window to your mind open, you'll get a lot of fresh clean air. You won't have to break many glass houses either.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 12:50 PM   #8
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Interesting....

that you have only really found out about this recently Krak.

I guess since I went to a small private, Christian college where I was required to take religion and philosophy courses I have known this for quite awhile. The most important thing is that your beliefs are still somewhat steadfast, it's just finding out what can actually be linked back to the "original" texts that can be rewarding.

As everyone here has said, it really takes a great person to admit his mistakes or misconceptions. You know you have and will always have my respect.

Although I don't always agree with Imashroom (mostly on our political views) I do respect his vast knowledge on a plethora of subjects......he has also gotten a little better about all the puns. Notice I said "a little."

Hope all is well with everyone. Best wishes to you all.

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Old July 11th, 2004, 04:12 PM   #9
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Agghh.. part of my response got screwed up into the last of the quotes that I cited, because I mistyped "/Qupte" for "/Quote." So reposting that part:
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In the meantime, here lies my most sincere apology. I apologize for all the times I made you the target of my vitriol, as you were only trying to tell me the story as you know it, which as it turns out, is quite a bit closer to the truth than I previously believed, or was willing to accept.
No apology needed. You did what most of us do -- defend vehemently what we believe deep inside, because we view our beliefs as our selves -- our fundamental identities. When we can learn to separate the two -- our beliefs and our selves -- both improve, and real learning can occur.
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he has also gotten a little better about all the puns. Notice I said "a little."
It's something to take little notice of...
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Old July 11th, 2004, 04:16 PM   #10
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Kudos to you Krakken. As always, my respect.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 04:52 PM   #11
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Not being an ass here...

What made you reach your decision regarding the validity of the KJV? Obviously some stuff that you and 'shroom discussed elsewhere...fill us in!

But good on ya...reassessing and reinterpreting can only do good, says me.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 05:57 PM   #12
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What made you reach your decision regarding the validity of the KJV? Obviously some stuff that you and 'shroom discussed elsewhere...fill us in!

But good on ya...reassessing and reinterpreting can only do good, says me.
Actually, it wasn't anything in PARTICULAR that we discussed. I was simply investigating biblical accuracy in general, and began noticing stuff. Not even the kind of things that shroom talks about (the contradictions), but really just the overall ACCURACY of the message didn't seem to line up. Then I researched the history of the bibles (KJV not being the only one), and to my astonishment (and horror), discovered that the writers would basically "re-interpret" a scripture, based on their own pre-concieved beliefs and then REWRITE (), the bible to read the way the "reinterpreted" it.

I wish I could literally meet these people in an alleyway somewhere. Lord help them if I ever did.

I felt the need to bring this thread here, because my debates with shroom were very public, sometimes very nasty, and always dramatic. I needed my apology and acknowlegement to be just as public. I'm not hiding.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 06:05 PM   #13
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Much respect Krak.

Just reading King James' back story and reasons for why he choose to re-write the Bible is frightning in itself.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 06:40 PM   #14
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Not even the kind of things that shroom talks about (the contradictions), but really just the overall ACCURACY of the message didn't seem to line up.
Actually, I have also talked about the overall accuracy of the Bible with regard to its message. What Christians call the Old Testament and the New Testament each have very conflicting messages for Christians, when viewed as an overall document. A careful comparison will also show you how Paul revised much of what the Gospels allege Christ to have said himself, and as a result, you get a very inaccurate view of what the Gospels allege Jesus to have taught, and thus an inaccurate view of the intent of Jesus' message. You get Jesus reinterpreted by Paul, who also reinterprets the Old Testament to fit his views. I have also discussed with you the inaccuracy of The Bibles when compared to history, to science, to experience, and to common sense.
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Then I researched the history of the bibles (KJV not being the only one), and to my astonishment (and horror), discovered that the writers would basically "re-interpret" a scripture, based on their own pre-concieved beliefs and then REWRITE (:mad, the bible to read the way the "reinterpreted" it.
Which is also what I've said many times the Christian revisionists have done to what they call the Old Testament. They have reinterpreted its words to fit their theology. They take passages that had nothing to do with Christ, and reinterpret them as though they did. There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh/Old Testament to hint at God having a son, the need to accept a Messiah in order to be saved, Satan = The Devil, etc., yet Christian revisionists continually affix new fallacious meanings to the texts to indicate otherwise.

There is a fascinating history of how Christ evolved from the early Christian concepts of him as a great teacher, to the son of God, and finally to God himself. The emergence of the Trinity as doctrine was part of this evolution and distortion. The destruction of the works of the Gnostics and their being accused of heresy is worth studying as well. They had a very different perspective on Christ. Furthermore, many early Christians who had converted from pagan beliefs, identified him with Mithras, and many were also sun worshippers. This affected the theology/mythology that grew up around him.

The history of Constantine and how he became converted to and a champion of Christianity, and changed its tenets fundamentally, is also worth learning. He had his own agenda, and in some ways it was worse than King James'. Christianity in may ways became Paulinity, then Constantinity, then Protestantinity -- an unholy trinity.

It's also not hard to discover that the writers of each of the Gospels had separate agendas as well, and their works were aimed at fulfilling them, which causes many of the contradictions between them. Bottom line, it's not just the KJV that one must cast a skeptical eye towards.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 06:43 PM   #15
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I'm glad you've broken free of The Matrix, Krak!
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Old July 11th, 2004, 07:06 PM   #16
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I'm glad you've broken free of The Matrix, Krak!
Now I just have to learn how to Remake it as I see fit.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 07:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Imashroom
Actually, I have also talked about the overall accuracy of the Bible with regard to its message.
I remember.

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Bottom line, it's not just the KJV that one must cast a skeptical eye towards.
I'm quite sure.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 07:12 PM   #18
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Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN that I've suddenly gone "agnostic" or "atheist".

Agnosticism is just saying that, as for the existence or nonexistence of a deity, it could be either one, don't know, and there's no ABSOLUTE proof either way. There's going to be flaws in arguments on both sides just as there's going to be valid points on both sides. Agnosticism is just being fair to both sides as either one could be true.

As a man with agnostic leanings I see that you have valid reasons for your beliefs just as valid at least as any reasons atheists have for their beliefs. I fully respect your right to believe as you do. I commend you for standing up for your beliefs even in the face of those who would revile you for being ignorant just for not believing in what they so self-righteously claim as absolute fact with no room for validity of any other view.




Now, if only 'Shrooms could be just as honest as you. He's given lip service to uncertainty and made some claims of his agnosticism but I've most often seen him arguing points for the atheist agenda. I don't recall ever seeing him making any arguments for the existence of deity. Rather he seems to argue that science precluedes any deity and pushes evolution as fact rather than just theory. His actions seem to show him as a true blue atheist.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 07:18 PM   #19
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Any of you scholars read this book Holy Grail, Holy Blood? I think thats the name of it. Picked it up today. Very interesting book so far, gotten through 100 pages or so...
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Old July 11th, 2004, 08:11 PM   #20
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I still believe in one god, and in Jesus' role (not as god either).
So Jesus is not God to you now Krakken?

How sad.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

But I suppose you no longer believe that huh?
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Old July 11th, 2004, 08:19 PM   #21
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Old July 11th, 2004, 08:45 PM   #22
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Old July 11th, 2004, 09:21 PM   #23
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Agnosticism is just saying that, as for the existence or nonexistence of a deity, it could be either one, don't know, and there's no ABSOLUTE proof either way.
Words mean different things to different people. As I've stated endlessly, in its strictest form, agnosticism doesn't quite mean what you just said, though it implies it. It means that ultimate reality is unknown and probably unknowable [it comes from the Greek agnostos, meaning unknown, unknowable]. As a subtext to this, the existence of a deity may be unknown and unknowable as well, since that is part of ultimate reality. But really, if a deity or deities exist, all he/she/it/them has to do is manifest his/her/its/their appearance in a proper fashion, rendering argument largely unnecessary; so the existence of one can in theory become known. The failure of one to do so weighs heavily against the existence of any deity, IMHO, but hardly serves as absolute proof.
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Agnosticism is just being fair to both sides as either one could be true.
There are more than two sides, and agnosticism is not so much about being fair, but about recognizing the limits of human knowledge.
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Now, if only 'Shrooms could be just as honest as you. He's given lip service to uncertainty and made some claims of his agnosticism but I've most often seen him arguing points for the atheist agenda.
Well, as is often the case, you are either intentionally distorting or blissfully unaware; I am uncertain as to which. I have clearly stated in the past that I don't like labels, but if I had to put one on myself, I have stated it would more precisely be "atheistic agnostic." I am an agnostic with atheistic leanings -- on a continuum, I have uncertainty, but it leans in a specific direction. You seem to fail to recognize or acknowledge that there exist degrees of uncertainty, as well as degrees of confidence in one's beliefs.

As I think about it currently, I might even prefer "atheistic agnostic skeptic," or some such combination. It's very hard for me to put a specific label on my beliefs; they don't fit into a nice clean unambiguous niche, which is about as honest as I can be.

I have stated that although I don't know with absolute certainty whether there is a deity, I have a high degree of belief that there is none, and a high degree of confidence in that belief, and furthermore, that I have no reason to require such a belief in one; but I don't rule out with certainty the possibility. I seek natural explanations rather than jumping to supernatural or preternatural ones. I think existence has always existed, but this doesn't require that what has existed be a deity. How is any of this dishonest?
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I don't recall ever seeing him making any arguments for the existence of deity.
Which is consistent with my stated beliefs. I think you will also find that I really don't make arguments against the existence of a deity either. Rather, I normally argue against such things as the Jewish/Christian/Muslim (and other religions') views of God, and the inaccuracy of the texts that support those beliefs. If a deity exists, it doesn't mean it has to be an interventionist deity, or one requiring obeisance, or one interested in "saving" us; it may be apathetic, evil, dead, not omnipotent, manipulative, sadistic, etc. These possibilities would at least explain why a deity would not, has not, or could not manifest himself/herself/itself. There may be many deities with different powers, or the universe itself may be "God," and we are all part of "God." A deity need not be anthropomorphic. It may be ineffable. Etc.
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he seems to argue that science precluedes any deity
I have specifically stated the opposite. Science makes no statement about the existence of a deity, and it certainly doesn't preclude the existence of one. What I have pointed out is that the Bibles and the Qur'an in parts run contrary to science and to history as we currently know them, which is an argument of a different order.
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and pushes evolution as fact rather than just theory.
Again, you have clearly not read my posts, in which I discuss the difference between facts and theories, and why scientists call evolution a theory and would never call it a fact. Guess I'll have to repeat myself. Facts are formed of five basic forms: direct observations, reports, inferences, value judgments, and human invention (such as definitions). All are subject to error. Theories are explanations (for facts) that are testable and accumulate substantial experimental or observational support; if a theory consistently supports (as through its predictions) new phenomena that are subsequently observed, it is considered to be a reliable theory. If it explains a large and diverse set of facts, it's considered robust.

Facts and theories are not interchangeable. Facts can be seen as the data that needs to be explained; theories can be seen as their explanations. However, a theory can be as "factual" (in the common vernacular sense) as a fact. No knowledge (including any fact or theory) is certain; we can at best discuss what is the current best known knowledge. Knowledge is not absolute and final. As a corollary, facts are never absolute and final; no theory is either. All knowledge is provisional, but some is better supported than others. The evidence in support of a reliable robust theory, such as evolution, may be so overwhelming, that it is unreasonable not to accept it provisionally. The evidence against a belief (such as the Biblical creation story), may be so overwhelming, that it is unreasonable not to reject it provisionally.
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His actions seem to show him as a true blue atheist.
If you are trying to make me feel blue, it won't work. I personally think true blue atheists are arrogantly wrong in their certainty and can't possibly defend their beliefs. Your attempts to provoke me are based on erroneous information. Next time research someone thoroughly before you make claims about their beliefs. That way you won't be wrong, or wrong them.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 09:22 PM   #24
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So Jesus is not God to you now Krakken?

How sad.
How sad indeed! I knew I would have to deal with this sooner or later. I'll use the KJV NT for this argument, since I am not familiar enough with the original greek yet to use it, and its perfectly acceptable for rebuffing that silly little barb of yours.


Genesis 1:26 establishes that there were a community of individuals that participated in the creation of man (again, according to the KJV that YOU know and trust): Let US make man in our own image......

It was GOD (singular) who made the statement though.......

But it doesn't specifically mention Jesus. It does mention GOD though. This is likely where the idea of the trinity takes its roots but its wrong.

In the 10 commandments God refers to HIMSELF in the SINGULAR

Quote:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD....

--God
The words "I" (not we), AM (a singular passive verb in this sentence--NOT ARE, which would indicate PLURALITY) and THE (again, indicating ONE BEING), all point to ONE INDIVIDUAL as god, not three.

Lets Fast forward to the NT.

The greek (as I know it as of now) uses the word "HEN" to describe the relationship between jesus, the father (who for some ODD reason, jesus acknowledges as god--go figure), and the holy spirit (who for some reason, jesus DOES NOT acknowledge as god--Go figure). Now the word hen, is translated: One (as in SIMILAR in QUALITY, which by extention then likely means similar "purpose, quality, power, dominion etc, since according to your KJV NT, jesus asserted that he had). Nowhere does it say that they are the same person.

Further, not only does jesus NOT make that claim, but he further rebuts it: How many times did he say:

Quote:
"It is not I, but the father who sent me...."
"For god so loved the world that HE SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.......

Throwing out whether or not you believe Jesus is even the SON of god, its clear that he wasn't god. Jesus didn't send himself here to die. Just how foolish does that sound? According to the text in your KJV, GOD SENT HIM! GOD did not come himself, and Jesus didn't come AS GOD. God stayed in heaven.

Lets look deeper shall we?

Quote:
"Oh my father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from ME; nevertheless, not as I will but as you will ME."

--Jesus praying in the garden
Just who was he praying to? Himself? Hardly. He was praying to the one and only god. If anything this only further underscores the point that jesus was SENT, since it appears it appears that he wasn't even all that happy go lucky or jubilant about dying for the sins of humanity. In fact, it looks to me, like he (gasp) didn't want to do it. Its also clear that his father (god) who has all power and authority MADE HIM come here. Whoda thunk it?? Note--This doesn't make JESUS any less important or holy, for the purposes of the story, but it DOES mean that he likely isn't who YOU obviously think he is.

And speaking of ALL POWER....even if you believe Jesus is all powerful, or has the final authority (which I'll accept, and even hold belief in, until a day comes that I see fit to believe otherwise, which isn't likely as of now)......

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power (or authority, depending on which bible you are reading) is GIVEN to me in heaven and on earth

Just who gave it to him? In order for it to be given to him, someone had to reliquish it. Just who do you think did that? Jesus didn't TAKE IT, did he? At some point, he didn't HAVE IT EITHER, since it is clear that it was GIVEN TO HIM. And since God is ETERNAL, just how could jesus be GOD, if he wasn't ALWAYS ALL POWERFUL, or THE FINAL AUTHORITY???????

I could keep going, but I'll stop now. Continuing on would just be adding more nails to an alreadly closed coffin. According to the KJV, those were the words of JESUS, whom you believe to be God himself. Not the words of paul, not the words of peter, or john. Of course all of this assumes that the KJV is entirely credible to begin with, since that is where I drew those scriptures from, and since I made this thread, well................


Quote:
1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

But I suppose you no longer believe that huh?
Sure I do. Question is, are you able to discern who is with Jesus and who isn't? If you think I suddenly am not, then I call into question your ability to do so.....
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Old July 11th, 2004, 09:54 PM   #25
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