This weekend, I'm going to my first ever AA meeting. AmA.

[Indra]

I thought this would be a great opportunity for everyone here to watch the machine in motion. There was an odd "all up in your business" thread that kind of turned into an OFG hack job as far as I'm concerned.

any who, would any of you guys be interested in asking questions about this weird shit? I'm pretty fucking nervous about the "religious" tones, myself.

[Aeon Storm]

Are you an alcoholic, or a tourist?

This is a serious question, BTW. I don't mean to offend if you're going for treatment (for yourself). It's just that I've done the Fight Club'esque tourist thing years ago with someone I knew who was an actual alcoholic.

Something I've learned since is that not all AA chapters are very 'religious'. The one I visited in New Orleans was basically like church (seriously), and I figured most were that way, but I'm told others aren't really like that at all.

[Intruderb]

I've been to a few meetings with my girl, from the ones that I went to they pushed more of the "higher power" terminology than God. Basically, you could say that a chair is the higher power if thats what works for you. The meetings were in the basement of a church and I was expecting it to be an infomercial on how god can save your soul, but i was wrong; Religion barely came up.

I've learned quite a bit about alcoholism since the old "all up in your business" days, I thought I was a borderline for years but just realised I was a binge drinker; My fiancee on the other hand could not stop, physically and mentally COULD NOT stop drinking. She polished between a 5th and half gallon of Kassers Vodka everyday without fail. She is celebrating her 1 year clean anniversary on Oct. 27th

Just ftr, if you can find your way to an NA meeting the girls are much hotter....

Good Luck Bro

[fgarriel]

Was there a specific event that made you realize that you were no longer in control?

Why can't you just stop? I used to go out multiple times a week and drink enough to qualify as having a problem (4-8 hours of constant social drinking). I never thought of it as a problem as I was functioning just fine. I moved away from that social group and haven't really drunk often since then. When I have, there have been multiple occassions where I drank and the consequences were severe (gambling beyond my means, fighting with family, etc.) It didn't take long for me to associate that alcohol greatly exacerbated those problems. Nowadays I'm very careful about when, where, and with whom I'll have more than a couple beers. But never did I feel that I couldn't stop. I can easily have one beer and not feel like I need to have another. I've got a fridge full of beer right now and I haven't drunk one in ages. It's not calling my name the way junk food might when I'm hungry. It's just there. Is it different for you? Are you compelled to drink?

[erp]

I think many people underestimate alcoholism. Somebody who becomes physically dependent on alcohol could die if they just quit cold turkey.

[Exodus]

Originally Posted by Intruderb

Basically, you could say that a chair is the higher power

Obama came to your AA meetings!?

[Overkill]

AA is the biggest cult going these days that's not recognized as a religion. There is literally zero evidence that they do anything at all to help people recover from addiction. They're completely anti-science to prevent people from getting real help. Their cannon does in fact state that only God can help you. They attempt to alienate their members from their families and replace them.

Just read: http://www.silkworth.net/sociology/Soc63OCR.pdf

In fact, every addict I know who got clean did it without AA, and every addict in know who went the AA route is still an addict.

Indra, bro, my advice is to GO TO A PSYCHOLOGIST. Get treatment. The "Big Book" is a big book of fucking faith healing total bullshit written by a damn televangelist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-1XsybbVm8

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russel...b_1340000.html

AA, in many cases, has a less than zero success rate, meaning that it actually keeps people addicted.

Oh, and read this too: http://www.orange-papers.org

[Old Fart Gamer]

Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their
experience, strength, and hope with each other that they may solve their
common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only
requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no
dues for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own
contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics,
organizations or institutions; does not wish to engage in controversy;
neither endorses or opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay
sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

My name is Ryan and I am an alcoholic. My sobriety date is 5/31/1992.

[Overkill]

Alcoholics Anonymous is the world’s most accepted cult, mostly because the general public doesn’t know anything about AA, and AA has no central structure. Each individual chapter is on it’s own, although each has their own religious text to teach from, commonly referred to as “The Big Book.”

Like any cult, AA and its book are full of lies and superstition. They do nothing to address an addict’s actual psychological illness. Their goal is to merely replace the addict’s addiction to alcohol and/or drugs to addiction to the program.

The program itself teaches that, get this, addiction is not a psychological issue. Of course, that’s a completely retrograde position to that of the American Psychological Association, and, you know, science as we know it. Instead, AA insists that there is no psychological aspect to addiction. Addicts are merely allergic. That position is so far and away from reality that it is the modern day equivalent of believing that the sun revolves around the planet Earth.

Alcoholics Anonymous, born out of the 1930’s from an evangelical Christian, has as much to do with modern psychology and alchemy has to do with chemistry. In other words, it’s complete bullshit. In fact, I sat through an AA meeting in which the speaker specifically taught, even using crudely drawn charts, that the addict’s anxiety, depression, or even bipolar disorder, could not be medically addressed until the addiction was dealt with. In AA world, that’s 12 to 24 months. Also, his books and videos were for sale, you know, just in case.

One of the cultist tactics that AA uses is what’s called love replacement. This is where a cult teaches that no one other than they themselves can understand you.

Based on independent scientific research, here are just a few of the the standard requirements to be a cult that AA meets:

• People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations;
• Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
• They receive what seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group;
• They get a new identity based on the group;
• They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.

The one simple explanation of AA is that only a higher power can cleanse you of your defects. It’s basically a lot like scientology, when you think about it.

Originally Posted by Old Fart Gamer

My name is Ryan and I am an alcoholic. My sobriety date is 5/31/1992.

And I am sure you did something else other than go to meetings.

[Old Fart Gamer]

Originally Posted by Overkill

And I am sure you did something else other than go to meetings.

Um....nope LOL!

I have neither the time nor the inclination to address your misconceptions and untruths because, quite simply, you're not an alcoholic.

In a nutshell, AA is this:

A guy is walking along when he suddenly falls in a hole. Despite his best efforts he can't get out. Suddenly he looks up and sees a face peering over the edge of the hole and he shouts, "Go and get some help." The would be rescuer then jumps in the hole. The guy sighs in disbelief, "What are you doing? Now we're both stuck in this hole." "Not so," says the rescuer, "I was once in this hole and another guy came and showed me that while neither of us could get out of this hole by ourselves, together we can."

I'm sober because other alcoholics took the time to show me how to get sober and stay sober one day at a time and now I try and do the same thing for others.

Indra, AA is not the only way to get sober and stay sober but it worked for me. Does that mean it will work for you? Only you can be the judge of that but I know thousands of people living sober and productive lives as a direct result of AA. If it doesn't work for you, don't give up. Try something else. If you truly are an alcoholic, sobriety is the goal no matter how it is achieved.

And, of course, I'm here if you need me.

[Overkill]

Here are the 12 steps of the cult.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Right off the bat step one is bullshit. No one is powerless over addiction. If that were the case then no one could defeat addiction. Steps two and three are not helpful other than to deepen the power of the cult over the individual. If God could remove your defects, then you wouldn't need the cult anymore. heh

A few of them actually have some merit, but even then only really under the guided care of professionals. AA is not a professional organization with training to help people in any way.

That's why there's zero evidence that people get better with AA. Most addicts do try AA at one point or another. The vast majority had the power to get better on their own. Others get professional help. AA counts all such successes as being credited to their program.

If you think that L. Ron Hubbard is a fucking loon, he's got nothing on Bill W. This fucking guy, piece of shit that he is, basically raped women who came to him for help. And, HE DIDN'T EVEN STAY SOBER. He ended up using LSD. haha

The other thing they keep from you is that almost all addicts suffer from some form of mental illness, that they don't want you to get treated.

Fuck these fucking fucks.

There is not, in AA, one single redeeming feature.

Originally Posted by Old Fart Gamer

Um....nope LOL!

Sure you did, so did most of those thousands. They used their existing relationships, they did counseling, they did therapy, they made significant life changes outside of the 12 steps. The 'we're in this together now' metaphor is cute. But it's not one of the steps.

If you didn't, then you're still addicted. You've merely replaced one addiction for the other, which is what AA is designed to do. It's not a cure. In fact, AA teaches that there isn't a cure.

I am also curious, why does AA openly encourage tobacco and caffeine addiction? Could it be just another crutch used in your addiction replacement?

It should be noted, for everyone else, that AA also ridicules people who do get sober on their own with the derogatory term "dry drunk." Their very existence is a threat to the cult, and the cult is important above all else. They believe that these so-called dry drunks, although they are sober and don't desire to drink, because they haven't bent over, spread their ass cheeks and let their higher power shove his fist up there that they aren't really cured, they're still addicts with addict like behavior.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to address your misconceptions and untruths because, quite simply, you're not an alcoholic.

See everyone? They're brain washed to think that only an alcoholic can understand an alcoholic. This cultist belief also extends to medical professionals and psychologists as well. They also believe that only an addict can help an addict.

They also assume that anyone who is opposed to their moronic bullshit isn't an addict.

They're also taught to not address criticisms of AA, just like members of every other cult.

[Intruderb]

Gonna have to side with OFG on this. I don't think that AA was the reason that my girlfriend became sober(the reasons were brutal). Basically the meetings I went to were very open and by choice only, no pressure to return by a single individual~ thats not a cult. In fact, they had a very impressive culture that was not based on religion but a gathering of people that were fighting the same fight. Find a different group to attack and move on, seriously....

[Exodus]

Sorry Rob, you have nothing to stand on (in this debate). The basis of your argument was;

In fact, every addict I know who got clean did it without AA, and every addict in know who went the AA route is still an addict.

Well, Rob, let me introduce you to OFG Now, the fact that you then went into berating OFG and calling him wrong, well, was very Limbaugh of you. Come on man, don't turn into a Republican on us! Just acknowledge that some people in AA can find success. OFG has. Many others have. Not everything has to be a conspiracy.

[Z_E_R_O]

I am not going to disagree with anything Rob dropped, but at the same time results are always a good indicator. AA helps people. I 100% disagree with the "Jesus shit" but if you can overlook it, things such as faith and structure and support do help people. I wish there were other options, I'd go to a psychologist. But the proof is in the pudding, and pudding is awesome. Flawed the 12 steps can be seen, but the web of people networked under it seem to make it work.

And yo, Indra, if you got problems you know the people to reach out to. Motherfuckers be ready to send the Wolf.

[Shaolin]

Rob: AA doesn't work!

OFG: AA worked for me!

Shortest argument ever.

[Overkill]

Originally Posted by Shaolin

OFG: AA worked for me!

No it didn't. He's still an addict. Ask him, he'll admit to it. A successful program stops addiction and addictive behavior.

[Overkill]

Originally Posted by Intruderb

Gonna have to side with OFG on this. I don't think that AA was the reason that my girlfriend became sober(the reasons were brutal).

Did you have a sponsor? Did she? Were you in al-Anon? Did you ever read the Big Book? If the answers to these questions are no, then you didn't go to enough meetings, and she obviously didn't get through the steps. Which is good for you, because AA has something like a 90 percent rate of members leaving their loved ones for AA members who do complete the steps.

Basically, going to a few meetings isn't the same thing as joining AA.

[Overkill]

Originally Posted by Exodus

Sorry Rob, you have nothing to stand on (in this debate).

Ya, a whole ton of research that I posed that you didn't read. It's a fucking cult and you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

One of my best friends tells me that God spoke to him and told him to fix his marriage. He did fix his marriage. Ergo God exists. Except for, oh wait, that's bullshit.

And so is AA's effectiveness, which some studies have shown to be close to, or in some cases, actually less than zero. Other studies that show a higher success rate use professional counselors to administer the program.

The sobriety rates lower generationally as the country becomes less religious because a strong belief in a higher power is required for the course to work. Someone said earlier that a chair can be the higher power. Well, that's a bit fucking stupid, don't you think? You're going to seek power and knowledge from a chair? That chair is going to remove your defects? Like eight of the 12 steps have to do with God. Read them. Someone else here said you can to the steps without god. No you can't. Half of them are only about God.

Read the AA Bible. It's dumber than the Book of Mormon. It literally condemns science. There's a reason why AA is considered a cult. If you weren't too lazy to read the study I attached you'd know that.

And OFG, that dude's still an addict, bro. He didn't get better. He replaced one addiction for another. That's part of the beauty of the AA cult. It's for life.

[Overkill]

Shao, Intruderb, and Ex...

Are you telling me that you don't believe that addiction is a psychological disorder?

Or are you telling me that psychological disorders shouldn't be treated by professionals?

Which is it?

We have thousands of troops returning with PTSD. Do you think that they'd get better treatment from amateurs or from people with professional training to address their issues?

Can you answer those questions?

[molsonmuscle]

Rob, your really coming off as a douchebag here. Just stop while your only behind and not off in Ann Coulter territory. OFG says AA has worked for him, I hope it works for Indra as well. You just posting your walls of texts makes it look like you can't handle the fact that other people have different opinions then you.

[Overkill]

Originally Posted by molsonmuscle

Rob, your really coming off as a douchebag here. Just stop while your only behind and not off in Ann Coulter territory. OFG says AA has worked for him, I hope it works for Indra as well. You just posting your walls of texts makes it look like you can't handle the fact that other people have different opinions then you.

An opinion is something like whether or not green is a pretty color. This is about a cult that pretends to be a legit way to treat a psychological disease, and they do it with faith healing.

It's literally the same shit as Scientology. And yes, if you adhere to that cult's principals then you'd stop doing drugs too. Either way you're giving your life over to a cult and you're not actually treating your illness.

[Aeon Storm]

Watch this:

I don't believe AA claims to remove addition, Rob. It helps people stop drinking and destroying their lives. When you say that AA 'doesn't work', you're saying that AA doesn't 'CURE' addiction, but once more, no one in AA is saying that it does. OFG certainly isn't, and no one I know who's gone to treatment is either.

So...in the end, it doesn't matter if it doesn't "cure/remove" addition, so long as it improves their life and they STOP DRINKING it 'works'. I don't think that most people have to pay a price any higher than what they would pay if they continued to use.

It's like that episode of Spongebob, when Spongebob was fooling with the shrink ray on Mermaid Man's utility belt and accidentally shrunk Squidward, and then every else in Bikini bottom one after another. In the end he couldn't figure out how to reverse it, so he just shrunk the whole town, too, and they were like, "Hey, this is alright I guess. What's the difference?"

Even if it doesn't remove addition, so long as they aren't drinking, what's the big difference for those who use the system?

[Exodus]

Sorry Rob, not arguing with you this time. You're pulling the Limbaugh/O'Reilly shit again. When you use logic, reasoning, and respect, you're a cool dude. But, when you get the holier than thou attitude you're showing now, you're a disrespectful child. I'm not getting sucked in this time. Enjoy your thoughts.

[Old Fart Gamer]

Originally Posted by Aeon Storm

Watch this:

I don't believe AA claims to remove addition, Rob. It helps people stop drinking and destroying their lives. When you say that AA 'doesn't work', you're saying that AA doesn't 'CURE' addiction, but once more, no one in AA is saying that it does. OFG certainly isn't, and no one I know who's gone to treatment is either.

So...in the end, it doesn't matter if it doesn't "cure/remove" addition, so long as it improves their life and they STOP DRINKING it 'works'. I don't think that most people have to pay a price any higher than what they would pay if they continued to use.

It's like that episode of Spongebob, when Spongebob was fooling with the shrink ray on Mermaid Man's utility belt and accidentally shrunk Squidward, and then every else in Bikini bottom one after another. In the end he couldn't figure out how to reverse it, so he just shrunk the whole town, too, and they were like, "Hey, this is alright I guess. What's the difference?"

Even if it doesn't remove addition, so long as they aren't drinking, what's the big difference for those who use the system?

You're exactly right. The gravest mistake an alcoholic can make is to think he/she is cured. Each day I get a one day reprieve from my affliction and I can go a day without drinking. I'll always be an alcoholic. A pickle can't be turned back into a cucumber.

[Overkill]

Ex. No offense, you're acting like an idiot and you have no idea what you're talking about. Find a flaw with what I am saying, and you're argument for AA has merit. You know nothing about this subject. Get educated or get lost.

Originally Posted by Aeon Storm

I don't believe AA claims to remove addition, Rob. It helps people stop drinking and destroying their lives. When you say that AA 'doesn't work', you're saying that AA doesn't 'CURE' addiction, but once more, no one in AA is saying that it does. OFG certainly isn't, and no one I know who's gone to treatment is either.

People who get treatment don't need to have counseling for the rest of their lives. AA is addiction replacement. It's faith healing by people who aren't professionals.

So...in the end, it doesn't matter if it doesn't "cure/remove" addition, so long as it improves their life and they STOP DRINKING it 'works'. I don't think that most people have to pay a price any higher than what they would pay if they continued to use.

That's be great if it actually did help most people stop drinking.

Even if it doesn't remove addition, so long as they aren't drinking, what's the big difference for those who use the system?

Because the system causes severe psychological damage. AAers like OFG teach people that only alcoholics can understand them. This is a cult technique called love replacement. It alienates the inductee from their friends, families and loved ones. AA becomes their family now. "Only we can understand each other."

It's also a system that demonizes anyone who does it on their own. It's also designed to wear down people to convince them into believing in their version of God. It's a classic bait and switch. It begins with a blanket no name higher power, and then it slowly calls it God and ridicules non-believers.

Let's look at the progression.

We begin with an open ended higher power:

"We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way."

And then we call it God:

"We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God."

And then we say fuck you to everyone else:

"If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you."

Chapter 4 in the Big Book is all about the idea that thinking for yourself, that any form of intellectualism, or non-belief, is part of the disease of alcoholism, and therefore you must submit to Bill W. and to God.

It's a fucking cult, bro. How is that healthy?

It's like that episode of Spongebob, when Spongebob was fooling with the shrink ray on Mermaid Man's utility belt and accidentally shrunk Squidward, and then every else in Bikini bottom one after another. In the end he couldn't figure out how to reverse it, so he just shrunk the whole town, too, and they were like, "Hey, this is alright I guess. What's the difference?"

The difference is this, at the end of that episode it put the evil Plankton in charge as a gigantic monster over the entire town. AA puts Bill W. and his religion in charge of these people's lives and destroys what's left of the life that they have.

Here's another way you could've worded that. "Hey, if brain washing gets people sober, what's the difference?" The difference is that they're now brainwashed.

Here are clinical examples of AA brainwashing.


1. Milieu control, or with whom one should interact: "Don't have any emotional entanglements any emotional entanglements (outside of AA) your first year." "My first sponsor told me to change my job, move, told me
that I should choose someone form the group to be my husband at the end of the first year (of sobriety)." "During the whole dinner, whenever I would leave the table (at the restaurant), my sponsor would follow me. It was as if she was worried about me, or that she was convinced that I would leave even though she had driven me to the restaurant in her car."

2. Mystical manipulation refers to the use of ritual and trust: "I was in the same room with 3,100 sober alcoholics, all holding hands and saying the Lord's Prayer. It was an extremely spiritual experience." "When I was very down, I called Jane (my sponsor) and it didn't matter if Jane's answering service took the message, and Jane never called back, or if I got in touch with Jane immediately. The only thing that's important is just knowing that Jane is there. That's the only thing that matters to me." "When the introduction was over, the leader asked,"Would all those with 30 days sobriety, stand up and identify themselves. ' This act met with applause."

3. Demand for purity, or interpreting behavior to be in keeping with the tenets of AA: " . . .due to the pain of not following the steps, I came to the point where I do it (follow the steps) now ... Step 7 works." "You may not want to give it (control ) to anyone - that is a character defect thinking that you are that special." "About the inventory, that's where rigorous honesty comes in. I wasn't, it was self-deception, it takes honesty, guts. Then
you grow.