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Old October 14th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #26
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4. Cult of confession, or the public admission of one's sins: "I modeled for porno photos to get money for booze." "Sometimes some people have to write a second inventory on sex alone. " "I knew I was a drunk. I was selfish, I was self-centred, and self-destructive. I appeared to be indifferent, I was hard, not tough. " "I tried to stab people, shoot at people, hit them with a
pan. But I felt closure after the violence."

5. Sacred science, or absolute truth can be found in the theology of AA: "...read the Big Book on the chapter on the agnostics, then go into your bathroom and get down on your knees and pray. "
"I was dry for six years, and then I had an emotional problem, and fell off. After three years I came back. I was in such pain, I figured I had better work all the steps this time." "I've been following the steps, and the promises about what would happen are true."

6. Loading the language, or use of in-group language which helps shape extant reality: "I'm a grateful alcoholic." "He's taking a geographic." "When I first came, I didn't understand the vocabulary. I didn't understand you at all, but I know that you had something going. " "She also addressed me as her baby. She said that when she told her AA friends about me, she told them that she had a baby, but then she was only a baby herself."
"I received my "TRY GOD" pendant, when I had my first month birthday."

7. Doctrine over person, or retrospective interpretation: "In working the steps, I find that I'm remembering little things from my past that I had forgotten that all have to do with how I became
the person I was."
"They (nonalcoholics) still want to be my friends now, but no - I don't fit. I'm not comfortable with them anymore."

8. Dispensing existence, or the identification of the alcoholic as separate from others: "There is no such thing as a drunk that doesn't know exactly how much and the cost of booze he
purchased."
"It would seem to some that we are selfish. If I had a family, for example, and they wanted Mommy home all the time, it just couldn't be. I have an obligation to go to meetings."
"People not in AA are 'Normy's.' They think AA members are hard and cruel, because we laugh at other's pain."

9. Love-bombing and family substitution, which are the means of making the AA group the most salient social fact for the individual:
"One of the incredible things about AA is the fact that you will be loved unconditionally; that no matter what you have done it is O.K."
"You should not let your husband push your buttons.. .only we understand you.
"I met some of her (sponsor's) friends. I was so nervous while I was talking to them that I had involuntarily crushed my Coke can. My sponsor then said that I didn't need to be afraid. They would love me till I could love myself, and that here in AA I was loved, just the way I was."
"I told my sponsor that I was upset about my sister's movingn away. She told me that she and others would take my sister's place. You have to cut off from your family and turn them over to God."
"In order to illustrate more fully the way in which reality is reconstituted by the group interactional process, the following vignettes are offered. One cold evening when one of the authors arrived at an AA meeting early, she sought the comfort of the fireplace that was burning in the meeting room. She was huddled by the fire shivering when an AA member approached her, and asked,
"How long is it since you had your last drink? I know the shaking gets pretty bad at the beginning." The investigator responded by saying that she was chilled. This response was denied and more advice was offered about how to control physical discomforts during the early phases of detoxification.
On another occasion, the undercover investigator wanted to clarify her position vis-a-vis the AA group, and told her sponsor that she was not a bona fide alcoholic but was engaged in a research project on alcoholism. The confession was rejected. The sponsor retorted, "I know that this isn't true. Only a true alcoholic could have gone through what you've jest gone through." She was referring to the ostensible discomforts of alcoholic withdrawal supposedly experienced by the investigator, and to the social discomforts that she had discussed with her sponsor about attending meetings. The sponsor assured her, "you may be doing research, but obviously your interest in this area is because you and your colleague are really alcoholics."

Yeah boooy. This shit is really healthy.

If OFG had gotten sober by joining Heaven's Gate or some shit, would you still be saying, so what, it worked?


On the basis of this study, the authors contend that AA uses all the methods of brain washing, which are also the methods used by cults.

OFG, I am sure, is a lost cause. But anyone who doesn't know about AA other than from what they see on TV should know that it's not a serious solution. It is, at best, a good supplement. As I said, there is value in three of the steps, and there is value in being around peers. But anyone's recovery from a psychological illness should be guided by a professional.


It is possible that the kind of alcoholic which AA can help islimited to a given psychological type; probably one who can accept the intimacy that AA demands, and one who is willing to lose his individual identity for the identity offered by the group.


I think that's a pretty high cost. Since we're making TV show analogies, I don't think that Capt. Picard would join the Borg collective to save his life.

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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #27
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I'm pretty sure that OFG has a pretty good relationship with his family. I don't think that AA has removed him from them -- if anything, the opposite is probably true. And I believe that OFG was already a believer in God, so it's not exactly something that changed his intellectual outlook on life or his theology perspective.

I absolutely don't agree with most of the principles of AA, and have gone on record several times challenging many of the things that you are now. The biggest difference is that I honestly think that AA DOES works for some people, and in the end that's a lot more important to me than any issues I have with their methods. I'd rather a bunch of addicts go to meetings and fellowship with each other to keep themselves and others off the bottle than a bunch of self-righteous drunkards NOT getting help and destroying their lives and other people's as well, included people who depend on and care about them the most.

And it's really not fair to compare AA to the heaven's Gate cult (or the Borg), since they sort of were suicidal crazies and cyborgs. OFG is living a productive, fulfilling life with his family, cancer girl, his children and grandchildren. He's not killing himself, or giving up his humanity.

He also says that someone should get pursue other methods of treatment if AA isn't for them, so it's not like he's knocking anyone for not using that particular program.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #28
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I'm actually defending AA and OFG, now? Fuck, I'm getting old.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:19 AM   #29
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I absolutely don't agree with most of the principles of AA, and have gone on record several times challenging many of the things that you are now. The biggest difference is that I honestly think that AA DOES works for some people, and in the end that's a lot more important to me than any issues I have with their methods. I'd rather a bunch of addicts go to meetings and fellowship with each other to keep themselves and others off the bottle than a bunch of self-righteous drunkards NOT getting help and destroying their lives and other people's as well, included people who depend on and care about them the most.
That sounds an awful lot like one of their slogans. "If our brains are washed then they needed washing." If course it works for some personality type. Shit, even healing through prayer has a measurable clinical effect. It doesn't mean I'd not rather a sick person see a doctor because the alternative works for some people. One thing I know for sure is that medical treatment works for most people. I wouldn't try to convince someone like OFG to leave AA anymore than I would try to convince my grandparents from swearing off their silly religion. But tell me, why wouldn't you want to dissuade someone from being exposed to this cult when there are better medical options available, and it is more clearly seen today that AA is a cult that employs mind control?

Quote:
-- if anything, the opposite is probably true.
It's 100 percent not true for people who have relationships before entering the program, as stated in item nine above. "Only we can understand you." You can't go to an AA meeting without hearing that. "They can't understand us." For people who stick with the program, most leave their husbands, wives, and in many cases their children, for someone else in the program.

Further, I think the Borg reference is apt. This is a cult that suppresses individualism and free though. Joining AA = joining the collective.

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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:43 AM   #30
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I'm pretty sure that OFG has a pretty good relationship with his family. I don't think that AA has removed him from them -- if anything, the opposite is probably true. And I believe that OFG was already a believer in God, so it's not exactly something that changed his intellectual outlook on life or his theology perspective.

I absolutely don't agree with most of the principles of AA, and have gone on record several times challenging many of the things that you are now. The biggest difference is that I honestly think that AA DOES works for some people, and in the end that's a lot more important to me than any issues I have with their methods. I'd rather a bunch of addicts go to meetings and fellowship with each other to keep themselves and others off the bottle than a bunch of self-righteous drunkards NOT getting help and destroying their lives and other people's as well, included people who depend on and care about them the most.

And it's really not fair to compare AA to the heaven's Gate cult (or the Borg), since they sort of were suicidal crazies and cyborgs. OFG is living a productive, fulfilling life with his family, cancer girl, his children and grandchildren. He's not killing himself, or giving up his humanity.

He also says that someone should get pursue other methods of treatment if AA isn't for them, so it's not like he's knocking anyone for not using that particular program.
Really...seriously....AFAIC.... thats the end of the story. If it improves their lives and makes them happier, dammit that's enough for me.

Rob:
Quote:
One of my best friends tells me that God spoke to him and told him to fix his marriage. He did fix his marriage. Ergo God exists. Except for, oh wait, that's bullshit.
No, its not bullshit. It worked and led him to repair his marriage. The end result is what matters.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:46 AM   #31
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I'm actually defending AA and OFG, now? Fuck, I'm getting old.
LOL! Its not a defense as much as a recognition of facts. OFG hasn't had a drink in 20 years. He credits AA as part of his success. AA works for him, as it may work for many others. Boom. Not really much of an argument here.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #32
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LOL! Its not a defense as much as a recognition of facts.
It's ignoring mountains of facts. Which, for reasons completely unknown to me, you are willfully doing.

It's like saying, "I've prayed every day that I wouldn't die, therefore God is real."

GTFOOWTBS.

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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:52 AM   #33
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Rob:
No, its not bullshit. It worked and led him to repair his marriage. The end result is what matters.
What are you talking about? He hears voices in his head and thinks it's God telling him to do things. That's a bad thing. What if they tell him do do something harmful? IT ALSO DOESN'T = GOD IS REAL.

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Really...seriously....AFAIC.... thats the end of the story. If it improves their lives and makes them happier, dammit that's enough for me.
Those dudes are already in the cult. Indra isn't in the cult yet, and he has far better treatment options than to join a cult where their principle method of treatment is mind-control.

This isn't about OFG. That dude's a lost cause. He's doing his little cult thing, it keeps him happy, and he's built his life around it. Good for him.

This is about someone who hasn't yet been brainwashed finding a better treatment option.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you guys? Since when does this group shun science and embrace mysticism?

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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #34
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What are you talking about? He hears voices in his head and thinks it's God telling him to do things. That's a bad thing. What if they tell him do do something harmful?
Cross that bridge if/when he gets there?
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Old October 15th, 2012, 12:56 AM   #35
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It's ignoring mountains of fasts. Which, for reasons completely unknown to me, you are willfully doing.

It's like saying, "I've prayed every day that I wouldn't die, therefore God is real."

GTFOOWTBS.
You argue in vain. Your hostility to religion, and in this case to AA, has blinded you from seeing the obvious: AA works for some people.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #36
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You argue in vain. Your hostility to religion, and in this case to AA, has blinded you from seeing the obvious: AA works for some people.
Read back three pages. It does work for some people, specifically the kind of people who are willing to give up their individualism.

The effectiveness of AA also rapidly declines generationally because our society has a different concept of God than the evangelicals did who founded it. A full 20 percent of Americans aren't religious, and only two percent of people under 30 believe in the word of the Bible. It's going to work better for a 65 year old Christian than it is for a 30 something today. In fact, the effectiveness of AA is declining so rapidly that in 20 years it'll be all but non-existent.
  1. It's a cult that uses mind control.
  2. It suppresses individualism.
  3. It is not based in science.
  4. Its practitioners have no professional training.
  5. It has an extremely low success rate.
  6. It discourages seeking medical treatment for physiological disorders.
  7. It seeks to control your relationships and to sever preexisting ones.

What is keeping you from seeing the obvious?

Those are fucking documented facts, motherfuckers!

There are hundreds of alternatives to AA. The best ones include medical treatment.

What are you, captain anti-scientific reality now?

P.S. I am not hostile against religion in general. Especially not the mainstream USA wishy washy egonovist Judeo-Christian variety. I am very hostile against cults that cause more harm than good. And those fuckers who want to kill people and take away rights and such. And the ones that shove it in everyone's faces. AA, NA, HA, they all fucking suck. They cause more harm than good. Their teachings are destructive.

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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:11 AM   #37
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Read back three pages. It does work for some people, specifically the kind of people who are willing to give up their individualism.
  1. It's a cult that uses mind control.
  2. It suppresses individualism.
  3. It is not based in science.
  4. Its practitioners have no professional training.
  5. It has an extremely low success rate.
  6. It discourages seeing medical treatment for physiological disorders.
  7. It seeks to control your relationships and to sever preexisting ones.

What is keeping you from seeing the obvious?

There are hundreds of alternatives to AA. The best ones include medical treatment.

What are you, captain anti-scientific reality now?
Since you acknowledge that it does work, even if not on terms you would accept.....whats your problem? Just can't stand seeing people living happily in disagreement with you?
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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:17 AM   #38
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Since you acknowledge that it does work, even if not on terms you would accept.....whats your problem? Just can't stand seeing people living happily in disagreement with you?
I don't have any problem with people who are already members of the cult. I would like to dissuade people who haven't signed up and turned their brains over to be washed.

There are actual clinical treatments for addiction.

What the fuck is your problem with that?

Why are you defending a faith healing cult that doesn't work for most people in lieu of medical science which does?

Seriously, what's your fucking point?

What are you going to tell me next, we shouldn't stop global warming because it's good for the cargo ship industry?

Some bad things are good for some people. No doubt. They're still bad.

You seriously have no idea what you're talking about, man. You are so fucking ignorant on this subject you're unable to rationally answer a single questions.

This fucking program destroys people's lives. It causes harm to real people. To their families. It's Jim Jones with moral authority. Jonestown was good for some people too, I am sure. What the fuck is my problem? What the fuck is yours? Why the fuck are you running to the defense of this faith healing bullshit when people seeking help for the first time can get medical and psychological treatment? How about answer the fucking question?

Edit: I also didn't acknowledge that it works as a treatment. It's addiction replacement. Sure, they're not drinking, but now they're addicted to the cult. Probably also caffeine and tobacco.

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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:28 AM   #39
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Rob, you're at 11, man. Bring it down, bro. Just...just, bring it down a little.

Go to my new thread and watch Andressa Soares shake her BIG FINE ass a little. It'll calm you down, really.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:28 AM   #40
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This fucking organization teaches people that alcoholism is an allergy. It teaches people to not get treatment for psychological disorders like PTSD, bi-polar, depression, anxiety, borderline personality disorders.

Indra is obviously having some crisis and you're telling him to go to a fucking faith healer "because it works for some people."

Jesus Christ dude, that's like saying the lottery is a cure for poverty. It worked for some people.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:28 AM   #41
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Rob, you're at 11, man. Bring it down, bro. Just...just, bring it down a little.

Go to my new thread and watch Andressa Soares shake her BIG FINE ass a little. It'll calm you down, really.
I'm at a 13, bro.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:30 AM   #42
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I'm at a 13, bro.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 08:24 AM   #43
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No, its not bullshit. It worked and led him to repair his marriage. The end result is what matters.

That's a pretty strange position to hold. Do you normally believe that 'the ends justify the means'?
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Old October 15th, 2012, 08:35 AM   #44
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Jesus Christ dude, that's like saying the lottery is a cure for poverty. It worked for some people.
I'm not going to research any of the actual statistics, because I don't give a shit, but I will assume that you have statistics which back it up. In which case, the above statement is the winning statement.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 08:46 AM   #45
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Rob, you may be 100% right for all I know. At the very least you seemed to have raised legit criticism on AA. but the fact that you are acting like a raging lunatic douchebag makes it really, really hard to agree with you or even read 90% of the shit you wrote.


Nobody listens to the guy standing on the street corner screaming at people as they walk by. Even if he has a valid point.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 08:57 AM   #46
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Rob, you may be 100% right for all I know. At the very least you seemed to have raised legit criticism on AA. but the fact that you are acting like a raging lunatic douchebag makes it really, really hard to agree with you or even read 90% of the shit you wrote.


Nobody listens to the guy standing on the street corner screaming at people as they walk by. Even if he has a valid point.
^This, right here.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 09:06 AM   #47
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I didn't read your whole book here because I just stopped at "fuck these fucking fucks". First and foremost success rates with programs like this really don't mean shit. There are alot of people who go to these meetings that have zero interest in quitting, they can be asked to go through the courts or they may go just to get a signature at the end of the meeting to prove to someone else (usually involves court) that they are working on bettering themselves, and than they go party.
There is plenty of "proffesional" help available but that help is also very expensive . Unless your total oblivious to addiction you should know that most addicts don't exactly have large bank rolls to play with, also they have burnt most of their bridges so "asking mommy and daddy" is not usually reality.
These programs are run by Experts in addiction, not because they went to school for it, but because they lived it. You may call it a cult I call it a community of people with like struggles.

Maybe you can use all of this pent up internet energy you have and start a better program and tell us about your success rates instead of flailing like a spoiled child about a program that has actually worked for real people in real situations
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... first, your dick is going to TOUCH hairy man ass, second your dick is going to PENETRATE hairy man ass, and lastly you're going to have to FUCK hairy man ass until you nut. What if he starts fucking you back? What if the dude starts groaning? Hairy man ass groaning?
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Old October 15th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #48
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That's a pretty strange position to hold. Do you normally believe that 'the ends justify the means'?
Lemmie just quote this again:

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The biggest difference is that I honestly think that AA DOES works for some people, and in the end that's a lot more important to me than any issues I have with their methods. I'd rather a bunch of addicts go to meetings and fellowship with each other to keep themselves and others off the bottle than a bunch of self-righteous drunkards NOT getting help and destroying their lives and other people's as well, included people who depend on and care about them the most
AA changed your life for the better? GREAT!

God talked to you, it saved your marriage and now you're happy? AWESOME!

Prayer helps to guide you through dark times in your life? FANTASTIC!

I don't have to agree with it. I'm just going to shake your hand and hope it continues to give you peace.

Its just immature and chickenshit to retort with "THERE IS NO GOD YOU'RE A STUPID BRAINWASHED CULTIST". Seriously, some people need to grow up.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 11:47 AM   #49
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I think Rob accomplished what he wanted here. Indra stopped posting in the thread and people are once again paying attention to him. He's acting like a fucking 5 year old who's mother is ignoring them.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 11:48 AM   #50
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Rob, you may be 100% right for all I know. At the very least you seemed to have raised legit criticism on AA. but the fact that you are acting like a raging lunatic douchebag makes it really, really hard to agree with you or even read 90% of the shit you wrote.


Nobody listens to the guy standing on the street corner screaming at people as they walk by. Even if he has a valid point.
Ya, well, sorry. Got a little heated. Just skip the "fuck" parts."

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First and foremost success rates with programs like this really don't mean shit.
Sure they do, man. What matters even more is the methods. AA, it's a faith healing program. Medicine and psychology; it's science.

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There are alot of people who go to these meetings that have zero interest in quitting they can be asked to go through the courts or they may go just to get a signature at the end of the meeting to prove to someone else (usually involves court) that they are working on bettering themselves, and than they go party.
That's a pretty small minority. I don't agree that the government should be allowed to send people to church, and I don't agree that they should be allowed to send people to AA.

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There is plenty of "proffesional" help available but that help is also very expensive .
That's especially true of the 12-step/AA based clinics. They're a minimum of $10,000 a month, and up to $80,000 a month. AA doesn't directly profit from their cult, but a lot of places sure do.

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Unless your total oblivious to addiction you should know that most addicts don't exactly have large bank rolls to play with, also they have burnt most of their bridges so "asking mommy and daddy" is not usually reality.
I am fully aware of this reality.

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These programs are run by Experts in addiction, not because they went to school for it, but because they lived it.
Because someone was an alcoholic or a junkie doesn't make them qualified to dispense psychological advice. That's a big problem with your concept. These are experts only in The Big Book. Which, if you ever bothered to read it, you would know that it's a book of faith healing that ridicules science, people who get sober on their own, it dissuades people from getting psychological treatment, it teaches that addiction is an allergy... it goes against everything that the American Psychological Association believes, and it openly degrades people who don't believe in God. because, according to the book, God is the only way that an addict can become sober.

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You may call it a cult I call it a community of people with like struggles.
I'm not calling it a cult, psychological sociological researchers are. It's both, though.

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Maybe you can use all of this pent up internet energy you have and start a better program and tell us about your success rates instead of flailing like a spoiled child about a program that has actually worked for real people in real situations
I am not an expert in psychology. Because I understand it's a cult and that it's largely negative doesn't mean I am the best person to found a clinic. There's also not really a market need, as there are many, many alternatives to AA that already exist, including groups like SOS, SMART Recovery, and so on.

Support groups, by the way, are great. AA is beyond a support group. It is literally a faith.

If the biggest criticism that you guys have is that I used the word 'fuck' too much, well, that sounds empty to me. It's like the Republicans bashing on Biden's epic victory in the last debate because he used strong language, and was tough, and laughed at absurdities.

The thing is, it's a bit of a personal issue to me. And I know what the fuck I am talking about. This isn't coming out of some broad generalization of my perceptions of reality, or some aggressiveness towards theology. If you had asked me two years ago I would've told you that I had a high opinion of AA, mostly thanks to Aaron Sorkin and The West Wing.

I lived pretty well immersed in this culture, the 12-stepping AA culture, for the better part of the last year of my life, and I can tell you that AA is a cult that uses mind-control. AA is addiction replacement. It is staunchly anti-science. It attempts to isolate the addict from their family and replace their family. It offers unconditional love. It teaches that only addicts can understand addicts. It teaches that "normy's" can't.

With something like the Catholic Church, I think there's a legitimate argument to be made as to whether or not it does more good than bad for society today. Sure, there is a lot of molestation and they promote an anti-progressive agenda, but they build hospitals, schools, and feed people.

With Alcoholics Anonymous I don't believe that any such argument can be made. As someone above astutely pointed out, the ends do not justify the means. The means includes brain washing. Literally. Yes, if a person does exactly what they're told, they probably won't drink. That's not the same thing as recovery. With addiction, there are, in over 90 percent of cases, accompanying psychological disorders. PTSD, bi-polar, et cetera. This is called duel diagnosis. AA not only doesn't address this, it doesn't classify addiction as a disorder (remember, only God can fix you, not science), and it discourages members from seeking help for their other ailments.

Not drinking and/or not doing drugs is not the end goal of recovery. Recovery is the end goal of recovery. That means being healthy mentally and physically. AA not only does not do that, not only does it not have the means to do that, it openly against it.

Fuck that, bro.

Science files you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

Medicine and psychology are science. Science is real. Religion can provide comfort. It even has a place is psychological health.

This reminds me of something that the president's priest said to him in an episode of The West Wing.

There was this guy in a flood. He was up on his roof and the water was rising. He prayed for God to save him. A boat came and he turned them away. "God will save me," he said. A helicopter came and lowered a ladder. He refused to accept. "God will save me," he said. Well, eventually he did drown. When he met God in Heaven, he asked, "Why didn't you save me? I am a pious man, I pray, I was good..." God replied, "I sent you a boat and a helicopter, what the Hell are you doing here?!"

Faith alone, isn't enough. I am certain that that's helpful, obviously, but you need reality too. In this case, the boat and the helicopter are treatment.

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